49 replies to this topic

[golf4fun]

Chris, I've been reading the posts on the others site and they all want to attack you. They seem to forget you blogged this on your own site
informing your customers and forum readers, you didn't post it on Golfwrx. or even respond to it until Ari attacked you on that forum. I think
you have proven your points except for the 1018 debate, and with the club being submitted for testing should clear that up also.

I have purchased Scratch irons and wedges over the years and still play them, I for one want to know what they are made of(if you need
a wedge to send in let me know). I based my purchase of Scratch products on the material and the customization, so i for one would be disappointed
to find out its not 1018 the softest forging. I recently purchased the Epon 302s, and they feel better than my Scratch irons, plus more forgiving due
to the advanced technology of Endo. I was going to purchase another set of Scratch irons, but there lack of response to my begging to spend a
$2000 sent me searching for something else, and I sent an email off to Tario. Tario made sure my irons were perfect, and answered all my
questions and there were alot, I've been so impressed by his customer service that I keep bugging him to purchase more product. My point being
Scratch customer service is severely lacking IMHO!

I run my own business and know there are plenty of dishonest people, haters and whatever, in time it all comes out in the wash.

[Spoon]

golf4fun, on Mar 9 2010, 10:46 AM, said:

I have purchased Scratch irons and wedges over the years and still play them, I for one want to know what they are made of(if you need
a wedge to send in let me know). I based my purchase of Scratch products on the material and the customization, so i for one would be disappointed
to find out its not 1018 the softest forging. I recently purchased the Epon 302s, and they feel better than my Scratch irons, plus more forgiving due
to the advanced technology of Endo. I was going to purchase another set of Scratch irons, but there lack of response to my begging to spend a
$2000 sent me searching for something else, and I sent an email off to Tario. Tario made sure my irons were perfect, and answered all my
questions and there were alot, I've been so impressed by his customer service that I keep bugging him to purchase more product. My point being
Scratch customer service is severely lacking IMHO!

I run my own business and know there are plenty of dishonest people, haters and whatever, in time it all comes out in the wash.

whats worst is you if you are not getting for what you think you are paying for , with intent to deceive its another story. there could be a possibility that someone was mislead into representing his product as such only to find out later it wasnt so. the proper thing to do would apologize and come clean, a cover up would only make things worse.

fwiw i used to be a scratch distributor in manila but dropped the brand a year or so ago. il keep my comments to myself for the time being but i got a the same feeling chris posted in his blog but that wasnt so much as an issue as the south east asian distributor i was dealing with to bring em in but that is another story.

btw we do share some common friends in japan that are very credible sources in regards to forging so i wouldnt completely discount his articles.

Edited by Spoon, 08 March 2010 - 09:48 PM.

[TourSpecGolfer]

golf4fun, on Mar 9 2010, 03:46 AM, said:

Chris, I've been reading the posts on the others site and they all want to attack you. They seem to forget you blogged this on your own site
informing your customers and forum readers, you didn't post it on Golfwrx. or even respond to it until Ari attacked you on that forum. I think
you have proven your points except for the 1018 debate, and with the club being submitted for testing should clear that up also.

I have purchased Scratch irons and wedges over the years and still play them, I for one want to know what they are made of(if you need
a wedge to send in let me know). I based my purchase of Scratch products on the material and the customization, so i for one would be disappointed
to find out its not 1018 the softest forging. I recently purchased the Epon 302s, and they feel better than my Scratch irons, plus more forgiving due
to the advanced technology of Endo. I was going to purchase another set of Scratch irons, but there lack of response to my begging to spend a
$2000 sent me searching for something else, and I sent an email off to Tario. Tario made sure my irons were perfect, and answered all my
questions and there were alot, I've been so impressed by his customer service that I keep bugging him to purchase more product. My point being
Scratch customer service is severely lacking IMHO!

I run my own business and know there are plenty of dishonest people, haters and whatever, in time it all comes out in the wash.

Ya know it may be more credible if I use a customers wedge for the test. PM me I will compensate you for it. We will send a total of two Scratch wedges for testing. But no matter what the result we already know that 1018 is not the softest forging. As I mentioned before S10C and S15C are softer and JIS grade. Yet after heat treatment they feel about the same as S25C anyway. We can sell both as raw blanks if people are interested I would just have to bring in several hundred. Also keep in mind that it's confirmed that 1018 does not meet JIS standards and would be sourced from mainland China not Japan.

[Keen]

Interesting debate...

Just one point/question.
Just because 1018 in general doesn't conform to JIS standard might not necessarily mean that there isn't good quality 1018 to be had from China, or whereever. Or am I thinking wrong?

It would be, IMO, beyond retarded for Scratch not to be 100% sure about their irons and wedges being 1018 when it is one of their main selling point (the other being the different grinds).

[TourSpecGolfer]

Keen, on Mar 9 2010, 11:11 AM, said:

Interesting debate...

Just one point/question.
Just because 1018 in general doesn't conform to JIS standard might not necessarily mean that there isn't good quality 1018 to be had from China, or wherever. Or am I thinking wrong?

It would be, IMO, beyond retarded for Scratch not to be 100% sure about their irons and wedges being 1018 when it is one of their main selling point (the other being the different grinds).

Hi Keen,

Your right China may have a decent quality 1018 but it's not feasible for the Factory to do a metallurgy test on each sheet before its used to produce golf clubs. The tolerance is very wide and the material is unreliable with 1018. On top of that my factory and design contacts even suggest against S10C or S15C for Golf Club production and still strongly claim that no one uses 1018 to produce golf clubs in Japan.

Even the factory that Ishihara-shoten usually sources raw heads from from in Okayama-Ken doesn't use 1018. This is the most likely place that Scratch Heads come from. I know this is where the blanks for the TSG wedge were ordered from and Scratch sold those to me on the basis that they were 1018 Ishihara Forged.

** I do have to correct one thing I stated before **

( The TSG wedge was not produced by Kyoei, with further research we know that Ishihara-Shoten outsourced the job to Asahi Golf who purchased the S25C blank from Okayama-Ken, we know down to the grinder who produced these wedges ).

Its commonly known in the U.S, Japan, & China that S20-S25C is optimal for golf club production. Engineers in the U.S OEMs know this to be true and should inquire if they have any doubt.

S20C is hardened to about the same level as S25C for best use. In fact Mizuno used to use S20C then switched to S25C, not sure about the reason but both materials cost about the same.

Bottom line is that there is no reason to use 1018 from China over S25C JIS. It's a clear downgrade in materials.

[wedgit]

TourSpecGolfer, on Mar 9 2010, 02:48 PM, said:

Its commonly known in the U.S, Japan, & China that S20-S25C is optimal for golf club production. Engineers in the U.S OEMs know this to be true and should inquire if they have any doubt.

S20C is hardened to about the same level as S25C for best use. In fact Mizuno used to use S20C then switched to S25C, not sure about the reason but both materials cost about the same.

Bottom line is that there is no reason to use 1018 from China over S25C JIS. It's a clear downgrade in materials.

So, exactly who is using S20-S25C in their 'Japan Forged' clubheads?

What are the results of the testing?

[TourSpecGolfer]

wedgit, on Mar 10 2010, 04:16 AM, said:

So, exactly who is using S20-S25C in their 'Japan Forged' clubheads?

What are the results of the testing?

The results will be known in about 19 days.

Everyone is using S20C-S25C in their Japan Forged club heads.

[HULC1105]

I don't have anything to say in this Scratch vs. TSG business, I don't have any scratch clubs in my bag. But for those who attacks Chris' integrity and ethnic standard, I can give you my personal opinion on that matter.

I bought TWO Yururi iron from TSG about a year and half ago, both proto blade. I love the look and the fact that they are limit production, I got my best friend one set, and one for myself. The transaction was fast and very good, as usual.

When Chris broke the news of dropping Yururi from TSG proshop, I was really upset, and wrote Chris an email, within 12 hours, he replied and explained everything to me. He was courteous and considerate, and was willing to "compensate" me (I used compensate, because that's the word I used when I was writing my emails to him, while I was pretty upset.), when he didn't have to do.

You have to understand that it takes a lot from a man to admit his fault, and it takes an extraordinary amount of courage out of man to admit when the fault isn't his. Chris did not just bull-*hit me and point his finger to anyone else (Yururi), he did NOT just want the sales, he wants me as a customer to be satisfied. If I can, I will post our back and forth emails up and show them to everyone who questions his motive.

Let the numbers talk, let the cold facts talk. We can wait.


HULC1105

[TourSpecGolfer]

Something I should clarify In regards to Miura forging:

The factory in Okayama-ken does 90% of the forging then Miura reheats it and uses a small pressing machine to smooth the surface.

Still they are not forged in house just waned to update you guy's with that latest tid bit. Not discrediting the brand in anyway they make SOLID product.

[xxio]

90% of the whole process? 90% of the forging? rough shape? both head and hosel?

Just asking for clarifications.

[TourSpecGolfer]

xxio, on Mar 10 2010, 11:49 AM, said:

90% of the whole process? 90% of the forging? rough shape? both head and hosel?

Just asking for clarifications.

90% of the entire forging process. More than rough shape and yes both head and hosel. the Final 10% smooths the surface.

[xxio]

Thank you for the clarification.

So they are not subcontracted but really a different entity (the foundry) all together? the employees are not under the control of Miura, they just approve the final product.