49 replies to this topic

[Vineman23]

Chris,

As a new comer to your site and it's products one of the things that has always been said in forums is that you let your customers know if there is a problem with QC on a product and if it is consistently faulty you will remove it from your product line.
This is a big bonus for us the customer IMO so please keep the honesty coming. It will be interesting to see where this debate ends up, we are all paying big money to buy from "independant" and high end companies and I for one expect to be given correct information about the product I am buying and also expect to have no QC issues. If I wanted to continue with inferior products I would still be buying from the retailer on the corner stocking (and pushing) the big OEM's equipment.

Vineman

[xxio]

Fair enough again.

Just like I responded in the wrx thread that the guys who were insinuating against you should come out with proof otherwise they are just tarnishing reputations I also come here and ask that perhaps better efforts could be made to ask Mr. Techner.

If Scratch replied with a "none of your business" type of email when you asked them about what you had discovered then all the harsh words are well deserved.

I saw the tolerances for the carbon contents of 1018 and 1020 somewhere and with tolerances they do overlap. I did not think to look at the other mineral content though. I hope test results come back soon.

[EPONfreak]

xxio, on Mar 8 2010, 01:32 PM, said:

Fair enough again.

Just like I responded in the wrx thread that the guys who were insinuating against you should come out with proof otherwise they are just tarnishing reputations I also come here and ask that perhaps better efforts could be made to ask Mr. Techner.

If Scratch replied with a "none of your business" type of email when you asked them about what you had discovered then all the harsh words are well deserved.

I saw the tolerances for the carbon contents of 1018 and 1020 somewhere and with tolerances they do overlap. I did not think to look at the other mineral content though. I hope test results come back soon.

The results of the metallurgy testing will be interesting.

Ari's response to the WRX thread (which as we know has been DELETED) states Chris' motivation is purely sales is ridiculous and reduces Ari's credibility in my eyes. An old trick is to 'play the man not the ball' to divert attention away from the real issue at hand.

We need only to view some recent threads to see Chris is entirely honest in his assessment of product. As evidence I cite his comment with regard to Sky Dream Jump QC and criticism of the 208KGX design. I would think a person purely about sales would remain silent on such issues.

[TourSpecGolfer]

Their clubs NOT being made of 1018 is simply my opinion because my logic and every expert I speak to tells me why would they select an inferior metal bringing it in from China when S25C JIS is available to them at a fair price. The only reason would be cost.

So far none of the grind factories and foundries i regularly speak with have ever heard of any golf company using 1018 for golf clubs in Japan. It's simply not a good material to use for golf clubs no matter what is done to the metal.

Scratch really has no idea where their clubs are being produced or who produces them on a day to day basis. Ishihara-Shoten outsources scratch orders to various factories and grinders. I know people first hand who are seasonal grinders who have actually ground Scratch wedges at different places on different days.

For example Ishihara-Shoten receives the order from scratch and will try to use the most economical grind house to produce their clubs. Often its Asahi Golf's team because they offer the lowest prices. BUT if Asahi is at max capacity the job will go to a different factory.

How it works in the Japanese grind industry is a group of often the same grinders go from factory to factory looking for work. For example if a grind studio has 30 grind employees usually 20 of them are seasonal. A grind man who works at facotry X will also go to Factory Y or Z or a bunch of other factories for work. It all depends on what factory has the Jobs available.

When Scratch say's Ishihara Forged or Forged by Ishihara-Shoten its 100% false. They don't forge golf clubs I know I sound like a broken record but I'm not BS'ing anyone with this. Their public records show they are not a foundry. They are classified as a Golf Shop and all my contacts back up the fact that they are middle men for manufacturing. Again common knowledge in the Japan golf industry but in the U.S nobody knows.

They are questioning my integrity and word calling me dishonest when they have twisted the facts that they don't pay tour players anything, that their product is forged by Ishihara-Shoten, that Mr. Ishihara of MOZ didn't pass away, that there is a special heat treatment that makes 1018 good for golf clubs, that the TSG wedge was 1018 Ishihara forged and that their Irons are Original Designs.

[TheHawkmc]

idrive, on Mar 8 2010, 02:19 AM, said:

The thread has been pulled from golfwrx.

It would have taken a SPONSOR's request to have it yanked. Not closed but yanked, GONE.

I'm sure any others (threads) will disappear even quicker.

Thread was not yanked, but move to another forum and closed. History of discussion is still there.

[Keen]

TheHawkmc, on Mar 8 2010, 02:22 PM, said:

Thread was not yanked, but move to another forum and closed. History of discussion is still there.

Which forum was it moved to, or do you have the link?


edit: Nevermind, found it.

Edited by Keen, 08 March 2010 - 05:58 AM.

[LSeca]

TourSpecGolfer, on Mar 8 2010, 03:06 AM, said:

Their clubs NOT being made of 1018 is simply my opinion because my logic and every expert I speak to tells me why would they select an inferior metal bringing it in from China when S25C JIS is available to them at a fair price. The only reason would be cost.

Chris, your logic has been flawed in the past (as you even admitted in the wrx thread). Who is to say it isn't flawed now? You have mentioned 1018, and even 1012 and 1015 in gear you have offered for sale in the Pro Shop. Yes, it may have been a while ago but you certainly had no issues with it before and even used it as a selling point.

So far none of the grind factories and foundries i regularly speak with have ever heard of any golf company using 1018 for golf clubs in Japan. It's simply not a good material to use for golf clubs no matter what is done to the metal.

Have any of these grind factories/foundries heard of the Yururi? As you may know, they have even stamped 1018 on wedges in the past. I beleive you carry this brand, maybe you can investigate them as well.

I tend to agree with xxio, he has worded himself very well in this thread. Personally, I have no dog in this fight as I do not purchase Scratch gear and do not plan to. However, I do question your motives and the way you have handled this. Imo, it has hurt you as much or more than the company you are calling out.

One other minor thing, the "pay for play" angle you are using and calling them out on is weak at best. "Pay for winning" is certainly not the same thing, Ping has even used this business model before. Scratch is a growing company and getting bigger, they now have professional player representation and are not trying to hide it. Rightfully so as it is something to be proud of.

[TourSpecGolfer]

LSeca, on Mar 8 2010, 03:47 PM, said:

I tend to agree with xxio, he has worded himself very well in this thread. Personally, I have no dog in this fight as I do not purchase Scratch gear and do not plan to. However, I do question your motives and the way you have handled this. Imo, it has hurt you as much or more than the company you are calling out.

One other minor thing, the "pay for play" angle you are using and calling them out on is weak at best. "Pay for winning" is certainly not the same thing, Ping has even used this business model before. Scratch is a growing company and getting bigger, they now have professional player representation and are not trying to hide it. Rightfully so as it is something to be proud of.

LSeca,

First of all you say Yururi has 1018 on their wedge? It's 1.618 THE GOLDEN RATIO! You have mistaken the 6 for a 0! 1.618 LINK Yes most of these factories know the Yururi brand. In fact Asahi golf regularly copies their designs. Anything else to say about Yururi? The owner is one of my best friends.

In regards to pay for play. "We Dont Pay Players" then they use on their website "Scratch is the only company on Tour that does not pay up front for players to use their clubs."

Its 100% misleading. Check out the Hackers Paradise Forum where they go in depth on it. Ari participates himself and gets caught in some marketing spin. In fact on the same forum they independantly found multiple sources who confirm that Mr. Ishihara has passed away!

What do you think my motives are? Trying to bring traffic to my website? or ....? Please explain. Let me put it simply someone is BS'ing everyone in the Industry, Golf Digest is printing this so are other publications and websites.

If you don't have a side in this why don't you question them? On the WRX board and here you only question me when I have laid out 5 solid areas where scratch is misleading the public and Ari will not respond to these.

Ari is not going to post anywhere that is not going to help him hide the truth.

Do you have any comments on Ishihara Forged? Open Model Use? Mr. Ishihara of MOZ is still alive? Softest Metal in Golf?

There are many people who back this info up in Japan. Ya know how many can back up Ari's claims?... none that I can find.

[LSeca]

TourSpecGolfer, on Mar 8 2010, 01:28 PM, said:

LSeca,

First of all you say Yururi has 1018 on their wedge? It's 1.618 THE GOLDEN RATIO! You have mistaken the 6 for a 0! 1.618 LINK Yes most of these factories know the Yururi brand. In fact Asahi golf regularly copies their designs. Anything else to say about Yururi? The owner is one of my best friends.

I stand corrected, I know it has been marketed as 1018 in other places. I apologize for the mistake, but you can tell one of your best friends his wood heads were some of the worst ever. Talk about horrible gear, those head blanks he used are/were some of the poorest quality ever imo.

Here is where I got the bad 1018 info, still does not excuse you of talking about this metal in the past and insinuating how soft it is. All of the sudden you are educated and now speak about how bad it is.
http://www.pureforged.co.uk/yururi-cnc-101...edge-1005-p.asp

Yes, I do think you did all of this for publicity Chris. I have lost respect for you and there is nothing you can say to change my mind. Many, many others feel the same I am sure.

I have said my peice and choose to stay out of your thread from now on.

Edited by LSeca, 08 March 2010 - 02:29 PM.

[TourSpecGolfer]

LSeca, on Mar 8 2010, 11:27 PM, said:

I stand corrected, I know it has been marketed as 1018 in other places. I apologize for the mistake, but you can tell one of your best friends his wood heads were some of the worst ever. Talk about horrible gear, those head blanks he used are/were some of the poorest quality ever imo.

Here is where I got the bad 1018 info, still does not excuse you of talking about this metal in the past and insinuating how soft it is. All of the sudden you are educated and now speak about how bad it is.
http://www.pureforged.co.uk/yururi-cnc-101...edge-1005-p.asp

Yes, I do think you did all of this for publicity Chris. I have lost respect for you and there is nothing you can say to change my mind. Many, many others feel the same I am sure.

I have said my peice and choose to stay out of your thread from now on.

LSeca, your welcome here anytime. IMO you seem to want to focus on the person who is exposing the truth instead of company who has mislead the consumer.

I will be 100% honest I did think 1018 Ishihara forged was a selling point. I used to think it was top grade stuff but in life you learn new things and over time working together with Japanese brands the truth came out. Nothing to hide.

At first this was a simple blog post stating what i believe about 1018 and exposing that Ishihara doesnt forge golf clubs and trying to clear up misconceptions about certain things. Mostly opinion mixed with what I have learned over the last few years.

But then when I read that Ari was saying I was dishonest and that all I care about profit things got heated. He spoke directly against me and my ethics. He said things that were quite frankly factually incorrect and he knew they were.

That's why I began to lay it on even thicker and became more aggressive in exposing things they have said that are not true.

I wish he stuck to the facts because I am more than happy to clear up anything that I am wrong about and apologize in a big big way. Yet he has no answers. Ari if your around show us how I'm wrong and I will retract everything, apologize on multiple boards and post your banners for a year.

My motives are not sales guy's. the less scratch sells doesnt equal more sales for us in my opinion. For the most part our customers dont come from mainstreme forum boards. The majority of our customers don't post in any forums. I didnt think this blog post stating my honest opinion would bring in this much traffic and publicity.

I will be 100% honest. I can admit I was upset that we sold our TSG wedge to customers based on the fact they are 1018 Ishihara Forged but other than that really no real motives until Ari decided to paint me as dishonest and greedy. His reason for us not working together is untrue also.

In regards to Yururi, I agree those woods were horrible and yes they were open model. Their wedges and irons have been very solid though and I will add their latest hyrbid is 100% original design and they have removed the previous woods from the line up.

[LSeca]

TourSpecGolfer, on Mar 8 2010, 02:42 PM, said:

LSeca, your welcome here anytime. IMO you seem to want to focus on the person who is exposing the truth instead of company who has mislead the consumer.

I said I would stay out of this thread, but I have to respond. We just do not see eye to eye here, but that is fine. I thank you for the kind words with the welcome, this is a great community with a nice level of maturity and knowledge. I do like to purchase items from the Pro Shop and have always recieved good service here....in fact I am hoping Goodsie has a speedy recovery as I need a new driver built.

[RichardLong]

Well I can't resist. I am a career lurker but a few thoughts...
"Do you have any comments on Ishihara Forged? Open Model Use? Mr. Ishihara of MOZ is still alive? Softest Metal in Golf? "

Out of the above, the Open Model Question and specific material of the product causes the greatest concern. These questions seem legitimate and it's strange that they are avoided by Ari at every turn.

I would also say that there are several people out there, including myself, who have spent large sums of money on these wedges. If these were bought assuming the material was different or less rare than advertised, it's shameful. I think this is why you are running into so much bashing, it's easier to attack you then to believe you have been deceived by Ari after dropping 200-300 for a wedge forged by a Japanese master.

I will also go on record to predict your results will verify your claim, then 1-3 days later Ari will publish something vague claiming that they are in fact 1018. I don't see closure for this coming soon.
I appreciate you bringing these questions up. I don't want to believe it, but with each action by Scratch it's becoming more apparent some level of deception was present, now it's just a question of how far it goes.