49 replies to this topic

[tsg4tch]

http://www.golftoimpress.com/2010/03/how-m...cturing-part-1/

http://www.golftoimpress.com/2010/03/1018-...ratch-responds/

From Golf To Impress Blog

Over the last several years we have been asked a good amount of questions about 1018 Forged steel also known as "soft steel", and for the last several years I have been inquiring about its availability in raw head form and bar form for our projects with various Japanese brands.

Let's not beat around the bush, I will tell you straight that Japan doesn't offer ...

[BigEasy]

Does anyone know what material was used for the "Miura forged" Onoff CB247 and where is was forged?

Edited by BigEasy, 06 March 2010 - 08:11 AM.

[golf4fun]

I'm glad that this has come out, I've always wondered why Scratch was using 1018 and nobody else! I own 2 sets of
Scratch irons and they are terrific, but I feel mislead about the product I'm using. I'd rather them say there using 1025
and brag about there tour dept. services!!

I hope somebody tests there material and if it so, I hope Scratch's founder steps up to the plate and tell the truth.

[vertigo88]

You have stated that the Miura heads come as a raw head and Miura's factory grinds it down. Could you divulge where Miura sources their heads? And as per website (Canadian) they use S25C steel. Is this true or they using some other steel?

As well, Endo uses S20C for their irons. Does the change between S25C and S20C have a significant effect on quality and durability?

[golf4fun]

I was not surprised they locked it up, heck you can't even find the thread anymore!! I think Scratch has a unique product in the US and a good one, Ari needs to get to the bottom of it and send a head in for testing. I'm surprised by all the scratch fanboys over there, I have 2 sets of there tour dept. irons and countless Scratch wedges, probably have spent more $$$ with them then anyone. I ordered 2 wedges back in November 09, still don't have them and haven't ever been given a date from Ari when I might receive them and no apology for being slow. Also for a company that is so proud of there quality control, the length of all my wedges have always been off, at least they were too long so I could cut them down myself. Anyways I think there losing some of there customers like me that got them going because there to focused on having a few clubs being played on the PGA tour right now.

Edited by golf4fun, 07 March 2010 - 02:27 PM.

[TourSpecGolfer]

Just to clear things up there are 3 Ishiharas. let me explain:

- Ishihara MOZ : The famous wedge grinder and hand polisher who founded the brand MOZ and died 2 years ago from stomach cancer.

- Ishihara-Shoten : This is a middle man company that works between manufactures and the actual factories ( they do not forge golf clubs ).

- Ishihara Store : This is the company that recieved the rights to Ishihara MOZ brand with a trademark transfer. they are only a golf shop.

Scratch Golf has been saying for years that their product is Ishihara forged. We are 100% positive that Ishihara-Shoten acts as a middle man and has never forged a golf club. they handle the orders and outsource the labor to various factories. This may explain why the TSG wedge was produced of S25C at kyoei.

We are surprised that Scratch Golf uses Ishihara-Shoten to act as the middle man in producing their products. It adds an extra expense & A LOT of time delay for orders. This is usually the case with non Japanese companies trying to have golf clubs produced in Japan.

The above is all FACT not rumors or opinion.

Quote

Does anyone know what material was used for the "Miura forged" Onoff CB247 and where is was forged?

Thank you for your question. The ONOFF CB247 is forged from S25C. Miura outsources their Forgings and Platings yet handles the grinding and quality control for their products. It's pretty interesting the head is forged separatly from the hosel piece and then Miura spins the hosel piece so fast that it gets hot and is able to stick to the head portion of the forging. This is a good way to create a tight tolerance. It also allows them to produce an iron using 2D which is more flat on the press and easier thus making it more affordable.

Quote

You have stated that the Miura heads come as a raw head and Miura's factory grinds it down. Could you divulge where Miura sources their heads? And as per website (Canadian) they use S25C steel. Is this true or they using some other steel?

As well, Endo uses S20C for their irons. Does the change between S25C and S20C have a significant effect on quality and durability?

I don't know the source for certain but my best sources all say an East Osaka foundry. It is high quality JIS grade S25C steel. In regards to your question about S20C vs S25C after heat treatment you really can't tell it boils down to the design of the golf club and the method of manufacturing.

Quote

I'm glad that this has come out, I've always wondered why Scratch was using 1018 and nobody else! I own 2 sets of
Scratch irons and they are terrific, but I feel mislead about the product I'm using. I'd rather them say there using 1025
and brag about there tour dept. services!!

I really dont think the issue is about whether or not they use 1018 but rather what exactly 1018 is and where it comes from. 1018 comes from mainland China and you can research this on your own via google. 1018 is of such a poor quality that Japan will not give it the JIS ( Japan Industry Standard ) rating.

JIS Rated Steel: S10C, S15C, S-20C, S25C, S35C, S45C, & S50C

The JIS standard is used in materials, appliances, electronics, automotive, architecture, and most other industries. It's a big deal in Japan and everything produced in Japan carries a JIS rating as a sign of Japan's high standards in quality.

Scratch Golf is having a tough time due to controversial marketing tactics:

1. The no pay for play controversy, they market they dont pay their players but people found out they only pay if they win.
2. The we produce original molds controversy - It's proven that their iron heads are Open Model catalog heads that have existed for almost 10 years at half the price.
3. The recent 1018 from mainland China controversy - we just broke this news a couple of days ago.
4. The Ishihara Forged controversy - Ishihara doesn't forge golf clubs & we just broke this news a couple of days ago.
5. The so called TSG 1018 Ishihara Forged wedge wedge controversy ( It was actually S25C produced by Kyoei )

We can however give them some benefit of the doubt as they do not deal directly with manufactures and use Ishihara-Shoten as a middle man so they may not know exactly what is happening on the production end of their product.

[xxio]

TourSpecGolfer, on Mar 7 2010, 06:23 PM, said:

We can however give them some benefit of the doubt as they do not deal directly with manufactures and use Ishihara-Shoten as a middle man so they may not know exactly what is happening on the production end of their product.

Chris couple of questions.

First, Why the use of "we". You and...?

Secondly, if you did think that Scratch did not know they using open molds (maybe they were told by Ishihara-Shoten they were using originals?) and that they didn't know what was going on wouldn't it have been more prudent to have contacted Scratch first since you did have a previous connection. Maybe Scratch thought all Ishihara's were the same. It seems that they are dealing with the son? More than a few would have assumed that the son is part of the operation, the typical Japanese system of keeping everything in the family.

IIRC you had a similar experience where you felt you were being "fooled" by GD-USA a while back during the GT vs DW wars. It would have been ideal for someone to have reached out to you then, why not "give back" to the industry which has been kind to you and reach out to someone who may be undergoing the same experience.

By doing an "expose" without talking to Scratch (and Miura) first I see how people can take it to mean there is an ulterior motive when there maybe none.

For me the Miura issue (not doing their own forgings) is bigger than the Scratch 1018 issue because carbon contents can overlap even using correct tolerances.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited by xxio, 07 March 2010 - 01:19 AM.

[TourSpecGolfer]

xxio, on Mar 7 2010, 10:16 AM, said:

Chris couple of questions.

First, Why the use of "we". You and...?

Secondly, if you did think that Scratch did not know they using open molds (maybe they were told by Ishihara-Shoten they were using originals?) and that they didn't know what was going on wouldn't it have been more prudent to have contacted Scratch first since you did have a previous connection. Maybe Scratch thought all Ishihara's were the same. It seems that they are dealing with the son? More than a few would have assumed that the son is part of the operation, the typical Japanese system of keeping everything in the family.

IIRC you had a similar experience where you felt you were being "fooled" by GD-USA a while back during the GT vs DW wars. It would have been ideal for someone to have reached out to you then, why not "give back" to the industry which has been kind to you and reach out to someone who may be undergoing the same experience.

By doing an "expose" without talking to Scratch (and Miura) first I see how people can take it to mean there is an ulterior motive when there maybe none.

For me the Miura issue (not doing their own forgings) is bigger than the Scratch 1018 issue because carbon contents can overlap even using correct tolerances.

Just my 2 cents.

I dont see it that way XXIO,

I said "some" benefit of the doubt. Being in business for 7+ years and visiting the foundry Ari couldn't of been completely in the dark. He knew about open model heads because we confronted him about it AND posted it. Further proof of that is he has denied it in two forums that called him on it. Do you not think those are open model heads?

In regards to GT & DW I know the name was taken from Darren Eggars. Both men have issues and both have moved on. No angels in that situation.

The purpose of the blog post was to clear up misconceptions that is common knowledge in the Japan Golf Industry. Furthermore, It's not simply about carbon contents it's also about material tolorences and where that material was originally produced. The tolerance is too drastic in 1018.

The Miura issue has been common knowledge in Japan. No single OEM of that size has a forging press unless they are producing 3000 sets per month of their own product....none.

[xxio]

Fair enough. You can handle things anyway you wish.

I would have hoped to have seen an effort to contact Scratch to make a few inquiries first before "exposing". I guess I fruitlessly thought the gentleman's game extended to the industry as well. Especially between two people who had a previous business relationship.

IMHO there is no benefit of the doubt, even "some" because otherwise the certainty with the information is posted would not be done so with such vigor.

I'm am no expert in open heads. I just know there are so many out there to count. There are so many similar iron, wedge, and putter heads that are bought in very rough shapes and then guys with great hands can do magic with them.

I hope the truth does come out.

[idrive]

The thread has been pulled from golfwrx.

It would have taken a SPONSOR's request to have it yanked. Not closed but yanked, GONE.

I'm sure any others (threads) will disappear even quicker.

[TourSpecGolfer]

There was an good question/comment in the blog and I wanted it into this conversation:

James T. Asked:

Quote

This debate about 1018 steel has me somewhat confused.

So in Japan they do not have a steel that is the equivalent of 1018 Carbon steel, because the Japanese foundrys dont believe they can control the quality to high enough margins. But then 1018 steel is exactly the same as any other carbon steel, it is just the carbon content that changes.

I know of plenty of companies throughout Europe that can produce 1018, 1025, whatever carbon steel to tolerances that are extremely high quality, they control what goes into the steel and therefore dictate the quality.

So the reason im confused….so in China the 1018 carbon steel is deemed to be low quality and a mish mash of ingredients…..in Japan they dont have or use 1018 because they feel it is inferior.

Should your statement really be, Chinese quality controls for 1018 steel are so poor that the Japanese will not use them, and will not copy them…because like i say, the quality of any steel depends on what you put in it, and you cannot simply say ANY 1018 steel is poor quality, because that isnt the case.

Anywho, its not really along the lines of the debate, but i didnt think it fair to call out 1018 steel all over the world as poor quality, because that is factually incorrect, as your research is based in Asia

My Reply:

It isnt only the carbon content that is reason why it will not be JIS certified but also the tolorance of other minerals, strength, and PSI. In europe they of course don’t use JIS, I think they have EN & ASCI which not as scrutinized as JIS, I haven’t researched if it meets EU standards or if EN1018 exists but ASCI 1018 is considered to have a relatively low tensile strength, but it is cheap and malleable.

We are big supporters of Japanese quality and the company in question has been making claims that were untrue and causing confusion to those who are not as educated about the manufacturing process in Japan.

The carbon content itself can overlap in 1018 steel just as other JIS materals can overlap but the range of that overlap and the amount it can overlap in carbon AND other minerals is not acceptable. This isn’t only a carbon or mineral issue it also involves other factors.

JIS ( Japan Industry Standard ) is very important to us and our customers it certifies the level of quality the material of a golf club is made at in our industry. To put it another way IMO it’s like comparing USDA PRIME grade beef to USDA CHOICE graded beef in america. The beef must have a certain amount of fat and other requirements to be considered USDA highest grade, well in this case the metal must meet not only carbon but other mineral amounts and then tolorance and tensile strength requirements to hit the bare minimum of the JIS grading system.

The Japanese Industry Standard system is used across just about every industry in Japan. In fact there has been controversy when a Japan home builder built homes using non JIS materials and parts and was heavily criticized due to the homes durability during an earthquake. There have also been complaints when appliances have malfunctioned causing harm or fire and the non JIS parts were part of the focus or blame. If there was a building made of 1018 vs S25C and a fire broke out the home made of 1018 in theory would crumble first.

For the Japanese in the golf equipment industry and taiwanese they did not need to do any research to know that 1018 was not up to par. It was a matter of simply mentioning 1018 and each of our sources said along the lines of ” thats not from here ” It’s a mainland China material. But we researched it any.

The company in question is supposed to be of the highest quality in golf as advertised, Could you imagine a fine dine resturaunt serve CHOICE grade beef and passing it off as PRIME to it’s customers

[TourSpecGolfer]

xxio, on Mar 7 2010, 02:37 PM, said:

Fair enough. You can handle things anyway you wish.

I would have hoped to have seen an effort to contact Scratch to make a few inquiries first before "exposing". I guess I fruitlessly thought the gentleman's game extended to the industry as well. Especially between two people who had a previous business relationship.

IMHO there is no benefit of the doubt, even "some" because otherwise the certainty with the information is posted would not be done so with such vigor.

I'm am no expert in open heads. I just know there are so many out there to count. There are so many similar iron, wedge, and putter heads that are bought in very rough shapes and then guys with great hands can do magic with them.

I hope the truth does come out.

XXIO, There were more than a few inquiries made by me as well as many customers about their use of open model heads. IMO the gentleman's game does extend to the industry for the most part but what part of gentlemans game do you see in what IMO is directly misleading the consumer?

My benefit of the doubt extends to perhaps they dont know as much as they say they do about their process because Shoten acts as a middle man for manufacturing.

I consider myself pretty knowledgeable on open model heads from Japan and Taiwan. If a product is open model being passed off as original mold or the company is charging original design type prices you will see me take issue with it. What sort of proof would you like to see?


In the above case this is an extremely popular open model head, although dated the companies that use it simply adjust the mold or grind instead of paying new mold fee's and producing thousands of sets. All 3 scratch models are Open Mold. It's OK they are decent clubs but the other brands are not publicly saying they use only "original molds" that only they produced. The least they could have done is do a CNC design in the sole raising the cost - value ratio but they went with a basic logo stamping.

Brands far bigger than scratch can't afford original design fee's. ( CAD, Mold, Min Qty ) please visit their HQ and then let me know if you think they have millions to blow producing 3 irons that are identical to open model offerings.